How being a light skinned Latina and daughter of parents with different skin tones has raised questions of identity.

This is an open space for uncomfortable conversations. There’s room for mistakes, room for misunderstandings and none for judgement because that is the only way to learn.

Sophia and I go way back. She was my best friend since Kindergarten and went to school together up until we graduated from 8th grade going into High School. And even then we were still very close. From American Girl Dolls, to One Direction, to curly hair, we’ve bonded over everything through each the progression of our lives. As Dominicans from the same borough, we’ve debated whether or not we were related or not. Our background and experiences are quite similar but Sophia has a story that’s very unique from my own.

So of course I know you’re Dominican, but can you clarify from where and how you identify as a Latina.

So, both my parents are born and D.R. They're both from Santiago. My mom is more from I think the center of Santiago and then my dad is more from the Campo. I think he grew up in Bella Vista I think is what he said. And then like how I identify I guess just because I would go there every summer, and then my parents are also very Dominican, they immigrated from D.R., so I feel like I've been around a lot of the culture, a lot of language. I was very immersed as like a kid like going to D.R. every summer or all the time I would speak be in the culture with my cousins, with family, so I think like that is what kind of makes me identify as a Latina not just because- since I wasn't born there, it’s like how can I say I’m Dominican when I wasn’t born there? But I can identify as Latina just because my parents were born there. I was very immersed in the culture and it's a part of me, it's a part of my life.

So one thing that keeps coming up and the reason I started this was because Dominicans face a lot of backlash with racism and everything. There's a lot of talk about being a non-Black Latina but then there’s this statement of, all Dominicans are Black. So how would you say you identify?

When the whole conversation started with Black Lives Matter and stuff, I was like I'm just Dominican. And when you’re younger you don’t think about it. And not that I didn’t know the knowledge and my culture but I was never super like, you know what I’m trying to say? I remember my freshman year of college, my roommate, she was white. She asked me, “How do you identify?” She asked me, “Do you identify as Afro-Latina?” And at that time I really couldn’t answer that. Personally me, I don’t really identify as Afro-Latina, just because my skin color. I was like, how can I sit here and say, I’m Afro-Latina, and I have pale skin. I’m not super dark. I mean you can look at me and tell, you know she’s not white. But it's like I'm also not Black, my skin isn’t Black, it's not dark. So I feel like I can’t sit here and say I’m Afro-Latina when I haven’t gone through any of those big challenges, you know I haven’t gone through anything like a Black Latina would go through or an Afro-Latina would go through. So it's like I can’t sit here and say, as much as I want to say yes my family is Black, I do have Black family members. My mom’s dark. I have some family that are Haitian. But I feel like I can’t sit here and say I’m Afro-Latina. And it’s hard to think about it, you know how do I tell someone you’re not Black. It’s hard to gage on where do I stand on this spectrum because I’m not white but I’m also kind of white-passing. It’s hard to be like, okay what am I? I can’t just say I’m Dominican, I understand the knowledge of my culture. Dominicans are Taino, they’re Black, they have Spanish blood, and everything else. And it’s like Dominicans are very mixed but there are very white Dominicans as there are very Black Dominicans. It's still a very hard thing but it's a conversation that could always be spoken about. But it's hard too sometimes when there's so much ignorance in the culture when we just say we’re Dominican. It would be okay with us saying, okay we’re white. I feel like they would be more okay with saying we’re white than Black because Trujillo and a whole bunch of other dictators that even came before him that were super racist and were trying to take away all the Blackness. Dominicans have been very white-washed and it’s hard to change these older generation’s minds about how they saw the world. On my dad’s side, I don’t think any of the brothers and sisters have a curl to their hair. Then on my mom’s side, they all have super curly hair. So just with my family, I can see how there are different types of Dominicans. But then where do I fall in that. I’m literally the child of both my parents. I’m very white but I also have super curly hair so it’s a conversation that’s always had.

Have you ever experienced or seen anti-Blackness in your family?

Definitely, especially with one of my cousins. He’s super dark, I think he’s the darkest one in the family. On my dad’s side, especially. So I could just tell that how everyone kind of saw him a little bit more differently. He was always more dark he always got the nicknames like, you know, negro and everything else. And everyone always just always made him seem he was the bad one, out of all of them. And he was the least behaved but I was like you know, we're all kids we're all gonna do stuff we aren't supposed to, but he was one of those kids that were always you know a little more rebellious. But it's also like you know, how does that play into. Is it because he was darker? He got less care got less attention to so that's why he behaved the way he was. He was dark and also came from a low income family, I was like, how else does that play into it? That was one part that I didn't realize until I was older, but it's like I can see it now, oh damn I don't know how much that could have affected him, just because he was darker skinned. And then when I started going natural everyone was back-lashing like pelo malo. They're always like, oh, when are you going to the salon. Ese es pelo malo. My hair isn't even super super super kinky curly like super tight curls but it's even just a curl. I even had to come at one of my aunts for her getting disrespectful talking about how curly hair is ugly. Because curly hair is associated to being Black and then there goes them being again racist and against Black people. So just because of your hair, just because of your skin color, anything that made you more towards being Black, was wrong. And my other cousin, she has a Black boyfriend. At first she was really really scared to bring him home because she was like, I feel like my family isn't going to accept him. And then they would always say, oh he’s good for a Black guy. Or he’s well-behaved for a Black guy. And then when she got pregnant they were always saying, I hope he doesn’t come out with super dark skin, I hope he doesn’t come out with ese pelo malo. So she got a lot of backlash. She was like, how are you already trying to judge my son before he's even born? They’d say oh I come he doesn’t come out like this or that, she’d tell them what are you saying? I hope he comes out healthy. Literally. So that was a big thing too. Even a baby that wasn’t born, they’re already trying to judge him to not be Black.

Especially him being Haitian, you know how Dominicans are with that too. I was having a conversation with my mom too. We were like talking about the whole Black Lives Matter thing. She saw on my Instagram obviously I was advocating a lot. She was like, you gotta relax with all the advocacy. I was like what do you mean? She was like you don’t go as hard as you’re doing right now for Dominicans but I was like okay but Dominicans are Black, this also goes for Dominicans. And we had a whole conversation. And there was a little bit of ignorance that I could sense. I was like, you’re saying that the Haitians tried to take over Dominican Republic but what did the Spaniards do? They literally took over your whole entire country. And they raped, enslaved your people, raped your women, and everything else but you don’t care. You’re happy that the Spaniards did that to your country right because they’re white. But the Haitians tried to take away your country and your freedom and now you're upset.

How did you first noticing the anti-Blackness, was it with your cousin?

I feel like it was hard to gage. When I first noticed it. Just because when you're younger, of course you don't really notice it. But it’s also, I didn’t go through it. So to me, this didn't exist, just because of in my eyes, I didn't go through it, so it's not happening. And obviously when you're younger you don't, you know, you're not really told about, this is what racism is. Obviously I've learned when you're younger, in history, the people who are Black are always are more likely to be you know arrested, killed, etc. You kind of know but you don't really think about it like the people in your family. I didn't really notice until I started having more of these conversations a little more in high school, when I started seeing more of the news. More people were being killed on the news, but even then in high school I would hear about it. Say you bring up the topic of Black is always been suspended. And then it's like, oh I never thought about that I think back to school like oh wait, why did in high school, most of the kids who were Black are always the ones being suspended? Until I had the conversations, I don't really know when that was the first time that I noticed it.

Have you ever seen anti-Blackness in D.R. outside of your family, at any point?

Oh yeah, of course. A lot of the people who had the poorer jobs were always dark-skinned. The ones who were always constructing, were dark-skinned the one that were outside selling food were dark-skinned. I'm pretty sure you know when you're home, you hear the ladies passing by and the trucks where they're walking by with the big baskets on their head and balancing them on, I’ve never seen a white one. They're always dark. Then there was also a lady that always used to— I guess a maid. But it was a lady that would always help my grandma and my grandpa clean their houses, and she was always really dark. But to me, she was family, I've known her since she was little so to me, she was always somebody who was family, but I never was like oh it's because she's Black. But she also really came from a really poor area but everybody in that area was darker-skinned. So outside of my family I can already see in D.R., especially all the people who held higher positions or anything else were lighter skinned, but everybody else with darker skin were the ones who were struggling and then doing all the poor jobs. So you can just visually see it, once you know about it, you can just visually see it.

And my parents have an apartment in D.R., like a gated apartment building. And the doormen who control the entrance, they’re Haitian. And again it goes to like all those type of jobs, are the Haitians that come from Haiti, and then or they're just really dark-skinned Dominicans. And it happens here too. In jobs, if they have a very a very Black name, African name, their resume would probably be thrown away from high corporate jobs. It's hard for them to step up just because they're darker skinned.

So have you ever experienced racism firsthand?

I don't think I've ever like experienced any type of racism firsthand and that's a privilege to even say that. I really don't think I've ever experienced any type of racism ever. I suppose I've never been anywhere that. I mean, it can happen anywhere. I was going to say I've never been anywhere where it's just all white people and like I speak Spanish, and they're like, they're super racist, but I don't think I've ever experienced any type of like racism just towards myself.

Okay. Yeah I ask this because often I have trouble thinking about this too. Once I took this class over Zoom about how to write an Op-Ed. And so my thing was about my struggle with how I identify as a Latina. There were only about 8 people in the class and the majority of them were Black. The teacher was Black. But when I said, in the Op-Ed, I’m a white Latina, they were all like what? I didn’t expect that. Because then it made me wonder, what was it that makes a person Black if it’s not just the color of their skin? If someone who’s dark-skinned, has never gone through racism before, then what does that mean?

I think it's also a lot of times people I guess have different ideas of what like racism is. Some people could think like— I could sit here and say my family was racist to me because of my hair. But it's like is that really racism or is that just a different problem? Because I've never had anybody call me slurs or racially profiled me, I've ever been stopped by a car for the color of my skin or anything. I was never looked at or spoken to different because of the color of my skin. But then some people be like you can’t identify as Black because of the color of your skin. But then some people who are Black and white, how can you tell them they’re not Black? Let’s say both of your parents happen to be dark and you somehow turn out to be lighter skinned, you know somewhere in the lineage there was a lighter skinned person and now you're lighter skinned. So do you say you’re not Black? I personally don't know that because also I've never gone through so it's like how can I sit here and say you're not Black? I’m not dark skinned so I can’t tell somebody— unless some white girl was like, yeah I’m Black and both her parents are super white, I’ll be like stop. Like the Rachel Dolezal thing, how she was like, “I can identify as whatever I want, I identify as Black.” I’m like sis..I don’t think that’s how it works. So I mean there’s a lot of reading in education but it’s also like, how do I know for myself? How do I identify? Because I feel like I can’t identify as white because that’s not my culture. So I’m white passing? But then I also read something that said saying you're passing is wrong, because why are you saying you’re passing if you’re just white? You can’t say you’re Black passing. You’re just Black.

How would you say it’s had an impact on the way you get through? Because once I had a moment where I was with my Latina friend and my Black friend. We were talking about something but my mind was somewhere else. So when I asked them, “what?” About what we were talking about, my Latina friend told me, “you can’t say that?” And eventually I understood what she meant. It was about the N-word. And then another time on Blackish when they were talking about who can say the word, they said that Dominicans can say it. So it’s a confusing thing, because I’ve wondered how as a Dominican that I can embrace my Blackness without being controversial.

It’s just hard too, it takes me back to my freshman year roommate when she asked me how I identify. I didn’t wanna identify as the wrong thing because my school was very inclusive. They want to call you the right things and everything. So she's like, I don't want to call you something that you're not, and she was like, oh are you Afro-Latina and I was like, honestly, I don't know. Honestly you can just call me Sophia. I don’t want to say I’m one thing and I’m not. And of course, I’ve said the N-word many times but I grew up saying it, so to me it wasn’t wrong. But then when you learn about, you know, the meaning of that word and everything you understand how wrong the word it is, etc. Of course if you’re white you shouldn’t be saying it, but then the argument also is that nobody should be saying it. Some people will say, oh don’t call me a cracker but then some argue that it’s a bad word as bad as the N-word. Because the N-word was used to the slaves to call them out as something different. So with the whole history of it, I understand. I decided I’m going to just stop saying it completely because I feel like it’s wrong in general. Sometimes it slips out from habit out of having saying it so many times. I like making the conscious effort that this is a bad word and I should stop. And it’s not hard for me to stop, it’s just like on autopilot. If you told me to call you by a different name, it will come out. Almost like telling people to stop cursing. But going back to what you were saying about embracing, it’s very hard. If I say I’m white, then I’m negating my blackness and that’s wrong. I guess it’s about understanding where your family comes from.

So I know you want to be an artist. How does that play a role in your background and overall view of things?

My biggest thing was always to have an inclusive space for artists. That’s kind of what I did for my senior project too. All of these museums and these galleries mostly show you white men, these white European men’s art, but they’re not the only artists that exist and they’re not the only important ones. So I always wanted there to be a space where anybody can come and show their art. I feel like a lot of Black artists feel like it has to be something racial, or a lot of women artists feel like it has to be something political, something feminist. I always wanted there to be a space where no matter the color of your skin, or no matter what you’ve been through, there’s a space where you’re able to show your art. Because I also feel like a lot of the time, in order to get into these spaces, you have to have a lot of money, or to rent it out and not everybody has that. I also wanted to create a space where you don’t have to pay to be there, I don’t know how that would ever happen but I want people to bring their stuff and show it. It’s a hard process to do but it’s like dismantling this white European centered ideology of what art has to be and then change it and anybody who just creates art could just come into a space and have that space to just show whatever they want to show.

I like that, I’ve never seen much like that before. So my last question, is what do you think would be the end goal of this all? If not an end goal, then the purpose of these conversations for someone who may not understand why we need them.

I guess the point of it all, like you said, is awareness. And for people to understand that it's not like it has to be like this, because I feel like when people think of identity, you have to be one certain thing. And we know today obviously you can identify as so many different things. Sexuality wise, racially wise. Also think about how race was something socially constructed. I want more people to have these conversations. It’s so easy to go online and advocate but are you having these conversations with your family? I feel like people want to have an understanding as to where they came from but it’s also okay to not know. I feel like at the same time because I feel like everybody wants to know what they are. And I feel like sometimes it's okay to not really know, and you know, do your research have real conversations and understand why you think a certain way. Because it's also important to understand why your family thinks of this a certain way. You can’t just be like, it’s a different time now, you need to keep up. They came from a different time, so they were brought up differently, so they think of it differently. It’s also to understand where other people are coming from. Being racist is wrong, but we can see why they think a certain way. Like why having curly hair isn’t wrong, Black people aren’t going to come into your store and steal your stuff. Again, it’s just knowledge and understanding. People think this way and it’s like why do they think this way? It’s a systematic thing. Systematic racism does exist. There’s a reason why the majority of minorities live in low income housing. It’s not because they want to. I feel like out of all this, people need to understand this. And with immigration, people telling them to leave. But it doesn’t work like that. I saw one thing on Twitter, about how people who are saying that America’s bad, then they tell them, if you don’t like it then leave. And somebody posted, oh so you agree, if somebody doesn’t like their country they should leave. And find a new country to live in. There’s so many things that need to be understood and people need to learn and listen. Some people don’t know how to listen.